This interview was originally recorded on December 6th, 2022. 
The Oral History Project is supported by the Arthur F. and Alice E. Adams Charitable Foundation. 

Joyce Castle, mezzo-soprano

Mezzo-soprano Joyce Castle has sung 150 roles over the past five decades, including a 2021 appearance as the Countess in The Queen of Spades at Des Moines Metro Opera. After beginning her career in Europe, Castle went on to sing for 25 years at the New York City Opera and 14 years at the Metropolitan Opera, in addition to performing with San Francisco Opera, Seattle Opera, and Houston Grand Opera, among others. She is closely associated with the work of American composers Stephen Sondheim, Dominick Argento, Michael Torke, Jake Heggie, and William Bolcom. Castle is a distinguished professor of voice at her alma mater, the University of Kansas.

Transcript

Marc A. Scorca: Joyce Castle, you are a legend in your time, with a career spanning more than five decades in American opera. It is so great that you're spending time with us today, just so we can capture some of the wonderful stories and remembrances of your time in opera. So thanks for being with us today.

Joyce Castle: Oh, it's my honor, Marc. You know it is. If you don't know it is, it is.

Marc A. Scorca: You know, Joyce, that I start every interview asking people: who brought you to your first opera?

Joyce Castle: My sister. I have an older brother and older sister. We were living in Baldwin, Kansas, which is just down the road from Lawrence, where I am now at the University of Kansas, about 15 miles. She was at Baker University, (the local university in Baldwin) in music education. She was a pianist and organist, and she invited 'little' Joyce - well, I was in high school - to go with her class to Kansas City to see an opera, and that was in 1953, and it was called the Kansas City Philharmonic Association. Bohème. The Rodolfo was Jan Peerce. Not too shabby. And we were in the balcony, but a little bit lower in the balcony on the aisle was somebody, whose signature is on the front of the program. And that would be Harry Truman.

Marc A. Scorca: Oh my God.

Joyce Castle: Because he's from Missouri; he was from very near Independence, Missouri.

Marc A. Scorca: So that's before Lyric Opera of Kansas City was established. So it was just the Philharmonic that was performing opera.

Joyce Castle: I don't know. I'd have to research that. I don't know the first date of the Lyric in Kansas.

Marc A. Scorca: But you have the performance program, Joyce; you have it right there.

Joyce Castle: My sister remembered to keep it, so that's fun.

Marc A. Scorca: So were you exploring your own musical talent in high school as a singer?

Joyce Castle: I sang first Marc, at the age of three in the Little Baptist Church in Buras, Louisiana. My mother played for me. I sang 'God Bless America', because Kate Smith was singing 'God Bless', and the little three year old - I certainly don't remember that - stood up. (My sister remembers it.) I never...I didn't ever not sing. That's not well said. And Mother was a pianist, and she started both my older sister and me on piano. So it's been music.

Marc A. Scorca: So, Joyce, when did someone step out and say, "You know, Joyce Castle, you have more talent than most. You have a gift". When did someone tell you, you could actually do this opera thing?

Joyce Castle: I don't know. It's just came with the territory. I was getting kudos right and left in the little town of Baldwin, and I took piano from early age, so I had pretty much a lot of piano. Took voice lessons by the seventh grade, because I was singing big or too big. And so Mother said to do that. Mother always knew.

Marc A. Scorca: When did you really know that opera would be your life?

Joyce Castle: Excuse me, but it isn't just opera, it's musicals and opera.

Marc A. Scorca: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

Joyce Castle: So I just started singing. Well, first we lived in Colorado when I was in the third grade - oh, this is a good story. We were doing the musical, Little Red Riding Hood, and Little Red Riding Hood got sick, and I got to do it.

Marc A. Scorca: I think that that illness on the part of that other singer is still being investigated out in Colorado.

Joyce Castle: Oh, Marc, you're evil. And then in high school, I did all the musicals and plays and I went to the University of Kansas, and that was great. I was a voice/theater major, so I did plays and I did musicals. I did Brigadoon, which I did for Beverly. I did Cleo in (Most) Happy Fella. I did Anna in The King and I. I did Assunta in The Saint of Bleecker Street.

Marc A. Scorca: But the fact that you did plays does account some for your incredible dramatic instincts on stage.

Joyce Castle: I loved doing plays. It's the same thing. You just then sing a little within the play. So I thought that was a great combination for me: a voice/theater major. We still have that major here at KU. But that fit me to a 'T'. Richard Torigi: do you know that name?

Marc A. Scorca: The name rings a bell. Yes.

Joyce Castle: He was brought in for Most Happy Fella. But an interesting part of that time at KU was, we did The Ballad of Baby Doe. I've done nine productions of Baby Doe. It's one of my favorite roles, Augusta. I was cast as the friend of Augusta. I was not ready for it. Sharon Tebbenkamp. And so what did Little Miss Joyce do? I went to Lewin Goff, who believed so much in me, and it was my senior year, and I said, "I'm too busy. I have to back out of of um....because uh, it's my last, uh, uh...He just stopped me and said, "You will do the friend of Augusta, and you will do it very, very well. And you'll have great support for Sharon". "Yes, sir". He was also the one that said when I first got to KU, "Okay, I'm just gonna tell you this. You're never gonna be late for rehearsals. You're gonna be doing a lot here". That's what he started at. That was nice. "You're gonna be doing a lot for me. You'll never be late for rehearsal. You will always know your part, and you will not give attitude for other people in the cast. You will be a part of it". That was pretty good; don't you think?

Marc A. Scorca: Isn't that a life lesson right there?

Joyce Castle: Yes; I had a great time at KU.

Marc A. Scorca: So, Joyce, did you win competitions and things, or did you really just start working?

Joyce Castle: Neither, but (weepy) I didn't really win very many competitions, and maybe I better have a Kleenex...

Marc A. Scorca: You've won the competition of life...

Joyce Castle: I did not win competitions. I got past the District in The Met, went to the Regional, or other competitions. And I got grants in New York. When I graduated, I married Wendell Castle, and we went to New York for nine months (and) one grant (was) to enter the International Franz Schubert Competition in Vienna. I learned a hundred Schubert songs. Well, it seemed like...flew to Vienna on their grant, was eliminated in the first round. First round. I knew somebody on the judge's board who, of course, couldn't vote. And he told me afterwards...'Der Tod und das Mädchen' I sang, and didn't take the low D, and the other person said, "I just couldn't take my eyes off of this piece of her hair that kept...". I said, "What? They weren't listening to...". But that's competitions. You just don't know. You just don't know. And auditions.

Marc A. Scorca: Well, once again, you have won the competition of life - incredible career. So, when did you, as a professional then, set foot on the opera stage with a bonafide debut?

Joyce Castle: I call it - got that? - I call my debut San Francisco Opera Siébel. I was in Western Opera Theater, and Kurt Herbert Adler called me in and said, "Siébel's sick, you have to go on tomorrow night". And I knew the aria only. Anyway, I call that my debut: '71.

Marc A. Scorca: Wow.

Joyce Castle: I was singing at Chautauqua Opera before that, because I went to Eastman. Wendell had this job in Rochester, so we moved to Rochester. I said, "I think Eastman School of Music is ...". Duh. I got a master's degree. And the Head of Opera was Leonard Treash, who was the Head of Opera at Chautauqua Opera. Now, wasn't that clever?

Marc A. Scorca: Makes sense. Makes good sense.

Joyce Castle: And somebody I knew from Eastman above me, who had graduated, but who knew me - Richard Woitach became the head of Western Opera Theater - Music Director, and he got me into Western Opera. So yes, I was brought in for Siébel.

Marc A. Scorca: You've mentioned a few names here that I just have to stop with. First of all, Western Opera Theater. I will say that a couple of our colleagues have talked a lot about the Boris Goldovsky Touring and all of that sort of thing, but you did Western Opera Theater and probably stopped in cities, small and big, all over the western part of the United States on the tour.

Joyce Castle: and Canada.

Marc A. Scorca: What was it like to do so many performances in essentially a truck and bus tour?

Joyce Castle: Heaven on Earth. That's what I'm made to do. You know, I got roles - small role of Baba in The Medium, Elizabeth Proctor in The Crucible.

Marc A. Scorca: Oh, great role.

Joyce Castle: Small, I'm kidding, of course. But then Tisbe in Cenerentola, and it was wonderful.

Marc A. Scorca: And doing multiple performances. I mean, performance after performance of it.

Joyce Castle: Yes. And some in halls, God knows where in California, with 14 people out there in this big hall. And Ed Korn, who was the head came back and said, "Okay, there are not many people out there, and you will perform this", - I don't know what it was. It doesn't matter. "You will perform it like the place is full". Gianni Schicchi, I think.

Marc A. Scorca: Which you always have to do. Ed Korn gave me my very first job out of college, when he was running what was then the Opera Company of Philadelphia. And he was very friendly with Richard Woitach. So Richard Woitach would conduct for Opera Company of Philadelphia. These are names that no one remembers. Ed as a real pioneer at the National Endowment for the Arts, running the Opera Music Theater program after he left Philadelphia. And Richard Woitach. Just tell us a bit about Richard.

Joyce Castle: Wow. He's brilliant, brilliant, brilliant. He could just read orchestra scores. He could just play anything and conduct. I did so many coachings, and I'm sure he played my audition for The Met too. I'm sure he did. Or more than one, when I got to another role or whatever. A lovely, lovely man.

Marc A. Scorca: And he liked to conduct with a chopstick.

Joyce Castle: That's right. I forgot that. Thank you.

Marc A. Scorca: He conducted with a chopstick.

Joyce Castle: That's right. That's right. He said, "My baton isn't any good. Let's go have Chinese". That's what he said. Thank you for reminding me of that.

Marc A. Scorca: That's so funny. So, City Opera became such an important place for you.

Joyce Castle: Yeah.

Marc A. Scorca: And what was...'cause the City Opera that we know...I worked there for four years. You worked there for years and years. People don't remember as well now what City Opera was in the day. What did City Opera mean to a young artist like you?

Joyce Castle: Well, City Opera was over there (points to her left) in Lincoln Center, and The Met was there (points ahead), and people went to both. It was a huge company. And yes, maybe for some that were younger, certainly for one starting out, I guess you'd say. But Plácido (Domingo) sang there. Not when I was there, but so many wonderful ones sang there. And Tim Nolen...well, if I start...I will tell you, that's something I never told the City Opera people when I got there. I started there late, in a way. I'd been to Paris. I was in Paris seven, eight years. Then I sang for Beverly and Hal (Prince) and various people. But I had just got out of KU. We went to New York, I said. I was recommended to sing for various things. I was recommended by Clayton Krehbiel who was close to Robert Shaw. There's another name. So I got hired for very high level concert chorus work, like with the New York Phil. So I saw Lenny there. I saw Seiji (Ozawa) there, (and) I worked with him, of course, so much later. And another person that I had been on... You know, I'm really old. When I was in college, I was at Dallas State Fair Musicals for two years in the summer, with all kinds of big stars, doing the big roles. And somebody in the chorus, Norman Treigle, recommended me for New York City Opera Chorus. So I did the American season. That's where I saw Beverly. I never told Beverly that.

Marc A. Scorca: The famous, famous American season.

Joyce Castle: Norman Treigle. I saw Pat (Patricia) Neway do her thing, and then we whisked off out of there. But I certainly remember that.

Marc A. Scorca: Cause for so many young artists, yes City Opera may not have had all the generous rehearsal time, but they did so much repertoire. It was such a place to do repertoire, learn your craft, get a New York Times review, which was very good for the career.

Joyce Castle: Absolutely. Maybe I was lucky in that I'm not hired for Bohème and Butterfly...well, early on, but too much on your knees, et cetera. Wilder roles. Love for Three Oranges. And, I don't wanna start...

Marc A. Scorca: Well Joyce, I wanted to ask you about that, because your repertoire is just vast, and there is an equal share of inherited repertoire and an American repertoire, new work.

Joyce Castle: Yes.

Marc A. Scorca: And in doing new work, or American work, did you approach it differently from the way you approached the inherited repertoire? Or was it just learning a role? One had a recorded history: you could listen to recordings of someone else singing Siébel. One didn't, and you had to figure it out, but you were a pianist. Did you approach the new work differently from the established work?

Joyce Castle: Not much, although I did some really tough roles. Most being after Western Opera. I was at Tanglewood. That was great. The Triumvirate were Lenny and Seiji and Gunther (Schuller). Hello.

Marc A. Scorca: Incredible.

Joyce Castle: That was called the Music Theater Group. Do you remember that?

Marc A. Scorca: Absolutely.

Joyce Castle: Was that the title of it? Ian Strasfogel was the head of that. And we did a lot. We did a lot. But we also did something called Aventures and Nouvelles Aventures by Ligeti, with David Holloway, another KU person and the soprano, I can't remember.

Marc A. Scorca: That's hard music.

Joyce Castle: Oh - hardest thing I ever learned, (sings whispery sounds, random note). You know things like that in rhythm and all. But I'm a mathematician, I think. I was good at math. I sort of think that that's like learning new scores, don't you?

Marc A. Scorca: Well, I haven't thought of it that way. But I also know that you're an accomplished pianist, so you could sit down with a score and work by yourself to master the music.

Joyce Castle: I am at the piano (plays chord). Yeah. I can help my students that way, sort of. Sometimes too much, because I should let 'em do it.

Marc A. Scorca: For sure. And musical theater: you did a steady stream of great musical theater.

Joyce Castle: Yeah. Early on. Excuse me. It's easier. The range is this much, (shows narrow space between fingers), you know? So when I was young, I was learning to sing higher and so forth, but I also loved it so much. It was just fun. And I always loved the fun numbers too. That Brigadoon at University of Kansas went all over the Far East; we had a USO tour. That's fun to do.

Marc A. Scorca: But also Sweeney Todd and Candide, A Little Night Music, all of which you've done on the opera stage.

Joyce Castle: Yes. That was the great dream. I was in Paris. Well, I had gone through New York and sung for Donald Hassard, and he said, "Oh, you should come back and sing for Beverly soon". And so I did. And they hired me for this first season. They didn't have much left, but some things that I got my foot in the door. And so I had that. I was living in Paris, though. I was breaking up from the second husband. There's only been two. Marc. You didn't ask me.

Marc A. Scorca: I wasn't counting.

Joyce Castle: Tim Nolen and Pauline Haupt recommended me, because they were with Hal Prince in Houston. He was doing Willie Stark, and he was looking for a Mrs. Lovett, and they said, "You should see Joyce Castle. And she's over in Paris". Well, he was coming to London, and then he was gonna do Turandot at the Vienna Staatsoper, so I went to London. I learned 'Pies' and 'White', but I learned it off of a record. I had a friend go to London, bring me back. You don't know about 33 1/3...

Marc A. Scorca: Oh, I sure do. I sure do.

Joyce Castle: And I learned 'The Worst Pies in London' off of that. That was something. Went to London; bought a score the day before the audition, so I could just look at it a little bit. He was checking up on his Evita in London. So I went on the stage of Evita, and sang for him. And he hired me on the spot. He hired me on the spot. It was unbelievable. So there I was: Hal Prince. I had already gotten Beverly. I went to Houston Grand Opera to do the first time Sweeney was ever in the Opera House, as you said. Stephen Sondheim there, of course. So I got my connection with Stephen, and then went to New York City Opera, and Hal's Candide was at City Opera. So I just leapt into that and got the recording. And so Lenny and Beverly and Steve, and - oh my goodness - was that good?

Marc A. Scorca: It's not a bad team.

Joyce Castle: I think that was good.

Marc A. Scorca: So is there any difference, because some people will argue that musicals shouldn't be on the opera stage. Other people feel it's just singing-theater, whatever works. Where are you on that one? It's just about singing theater?

Joyce Castle: Yes. But, you know, (pointing to herself) she can't dance. She really can't. So there are certain things...I was taking tap dance in New York. I remember downstairs in the rehearsal, Donald and Beverly walked by and I said, "I'm taking tap". And she said, "Oh, show me some". And I did some, and she looked down, she said, "Oh, that's nothing", and walked away. I just laughed, because that's for those kinds of roles. But Stephen Sondheim, you know, A Little Night Music, Sweeney Todd. Oh my goodness. Are they rather high level?

Marc A. Scorca: They're masterpieces.

Joyce Castle: Candide with Lenny. Oh my goodness. So yes, I was able to do that. And also Dialogues of the Carmelites and the French, and Baby Does, of course.

Marc A. Scorca: How wonderful to be able to put together all of that musical literature from Ligeti to Gounod. It's just incredible, absolutely incredible. Tell me about the sojourn in Paris, because...even now, I can tell from your French, that you feel very comfortable in French; you became very successful with French literature. What got you to Paris?

Joyce Castle: That second husband. And although the marriage didn't work, I got to Paris, and in retrospect, it was really wonderful. I sang a lot of concert opera with the French National Radio. Jean-Pierre Marty was the head of that. And he basically hired me for a lot. And we did French things, of course, and German...but also American. We did Old Maid and the Thief. But the French sojourn was very helpful for me. And I sang around in France, and I got hooked up with something called Grupo Accion, (which) was run by two Argentines - one crazed, theatrical, the other one, a terrific pianist. Argentines living in Paris with a company in Stuttgart. So I would go over to Stuttgart and I joined this company there. And we went to Brazil for heaven's sakes, and it was tremendous...just three singers. The big piece was called Hystérie - Hysteria, right? The two girls sang mad scenes or parts of mad scenes. And I was the 'One-Flew-over-the-Cuckoo's-Nest Nurse, singing 'Mon Coeur', just a collage. 90 minutes. (Rolf) Liebermann came in Paris, I remember, to see it, because it was so wild. We did a long run in Paris. Where? At the Hotel Salpêtrière. That's the hospital for the mental patients.

Marc A. Scorca: So we've talked about a USO tour and Western Opera Theater, France, Brazil, Stuttgart. The United States: San Francisco, City Opera, a dozen seasons at The Met. I know that most recently you're still singing at Des Moines Metro Opera and other places. So big companies, small companies. I know that you give your all every time you're on stage. But did you have a preference through those decades of the big company experience versus the small town experience? Did one speak to you more than another?

Joyce Castle: I think one jumps off the other. I think one lets you see the other one better. And I don't mean that the small companies were not interesting. To me, it almost always depended on the opera or the theatrical piece and the role. So the first time I was in Canada, I did my first Herodias. Where? Winnipeg. Who cares where it is? Who cares where I'm going? And actually, it's a nice company in Winnipeg, but I got to do the first Herodias. I loved City Opera. I loved singing at The Met. Marc, I just love to sing, that's all.

Marc A. Scorca: And clearly, because my next question, Joyce, is you have been doing this on stage - you've already admitted it for more than 50 years. Not many people have sung for 50 years, and a lot of people who've done half that much say, "Enough, I don't wanna do it anymore". So what about it has just motivated you to always take on new adventures, new roles, to keep on going?

Joyce Castle: It starts with the music. I don't know. Music is just in me, from that three year old. I guess, my mother. Music was always in the house. I have to say, I don't have children. What if I had had a child that has disabilities? I don't think I would've had such a long career. Or a husband with those kind of things. Avoided is not the word, but you see what I mean? I didn't have that. I just wanted to sing, and I could, and I just kept trying to keep... I'm 83, might as well get it out there. It's in Wikipedia. They can find that. (Sings 'ah'.) You test it, (makes warm-up sound). So I'm doing a couple of farewell concerts.

Marc A. Scorca: Years of them. I hope we have lots and lots of farewell concerts. How do you also just keep your voice in shape? Just because you keep using it?

Joyce Castle: I think that's a lot of it. But the body, the body. It's so much about the body. I haven't had a lung episode. I haven't had a heart episode. You know what I mean? I have bad knees.

Marc A. Scorca: So no Suzuki.

Joyce Castle: You can laugh. And that's terrible for my dance career too. But I just kept singing and I totally believe in - and what I tell the students - and they know it, and I make 'em do it. Coloratura exercises. The last thing you would think of for me, Marc, right? I am the great Rossinian?

Marc A. Scorca: That's not what I think of as your signature music.

Joyce Castle: No, it isn't. (Vocalizes) Keep the voice moving, moving, moving. I so believe in listening. Some young singers, it seems, can't hear themselves, and I think, do you really wanna hear it? If you know what is good singing, you can finally hear it, and then, you know when it's lousy.

Marc A. Scorca: I wanted to ask you about the rewards of teaching. You've been teaching for a long time now. How wonderful that it is at the University of Kansas. What are the rewards of teaching? Do you enjoy it?

Joyce Castle: I do, or I would've stopped earlier, but they gave me such a contract: full professor with tenure and weeks off. I don't do that as much anymore, because - you know - my age.

Marc A. Scorca: Do you like working with the young people?

Joyce Castle: I do. And you know, I was thinking this afternoon...sometimes you're walking in the door and I say, "Sit down", and I play them Joan Sutherland, or I play them Leontyne Price. One person said, "I'm finished. Oh, I've done those 24 Italian songs", because I told them to learn one. I said, "Sit down", and played Luciano's (Pavarotti) 'Caro Mio Ben'. Hello, hello. Montserrat's (Caballé) Pur dicesti. And you know where I got that? When I was in New York for those 20 some years, Harry Garland was my teacher. And he got me through all of those - I mean, you will admit, I did some really weird, different roles.

Marc A. Scorca: You did.

Joyce Castle: Like with the chest (voice), and then trying to do this one (gesticulates higher). And he would do that. He started me doing that, because he said, "I want you to hear this". And I remember hearing whoever he was playing for me - Marilyn Horne or Janet Baker or something. I remember doing this...looking at my watch, because see, I'm paying for that hour. I stopped doing that. I didn't do that very long, but I sure remember that. I listened. I think it's so important to listen to the greats. The greats. Don't you?

Marc A. Scorca: Oh, I mean, absolutely. If only to understand the inheritance of the styles of the approach, the use of language. And there's so many different things. From Luciano, the way he uses the language to sing is just a lesson. It's a voice lesson.

Joyce Castle: The line. The line is so important. My studio's right next to the violinist. David came in and he said, "I want you to hear Heifetz' Korngold. And so I've been playing the first few measures of the violin (concerto). I said, "Listen to that line".

Marc A. Scorca: So many people must come to you for advice. Advice about singing, like the young singers, or advice about career building and the diversity of repertoire, or advice about longevity and preserving your artistry. Joyce, what's at the heart of the Joyce Castle advice?

Joyce Castle: Oh, love the music. You have to love the music. You have to, or I don't know how you would last. If the music speaks to you and - hello voice - you singers, who carry it right there in the body. Is that a gift? Do you like it? To some, it's too much, because it isn't the same the next day. Beverly said to me once, "Only one or two, three times that I really liked my performance". I said, "You gotta be kidding. You've gotta be kidding. You're brilliant".

Marc A. Scorca: So, love the music.

Joyce Castle: Love the music, love your voice. Do the best you can with it. Keep yourself healthy and health doesn't just mean physical, of course. Try to be easy with yourself. This is not nothing what you do. Hello, hello. Somebody's gonna get up and sing Mimì? Wow. What a gift. What a gift. If you're true to yourself and you're kind to yourself, I really think that's a lot. Of course, I never got a bad review. (That's a joke, Marc). I never sang badly. (That's a joke, Marc). I never...Okay; you understand. We're humans out here. Do the best you can. And it will bring so much to you if you let it.

Marc A. Scorca: And show up on time.

Joyce Castle: Right.

Marc A. Scorca: Know your music, and don't give attitude.

Joyce Castle: No attitude.

Marc A. Scorca: It comes full circle.

Joyce Castle: Oh, yes. I would think you have to be Birgit Nilsson to give a lot of attitude. And I hear she was great.

Marc A. Scorca: Absolutely. In this oral history project of ours, I've heard so many wonderful stories, and I can't remember who it was. It may have been Justino Díaz who said, "Always the first one in the rehearsal hall was Joan Sutherland, who would be sitting over in the corner doing needlepoint. And she'd say, 'I'm here. Just call me when you need me'", and just the humility of some of the greatest artists.

Joyce Castle: When I was in Western Opera, Dame Joan was there. All of these greats were there. I think the most surprising thing was...we kept hearing this person....Jon Vickers...

Marc A. Scorca: Oh! One of my favorites.

Joyce Castle: Me too. But he was rehearsing Tristan. Birgit was flying in, and he canceled. And we had been hearing him at the door. I just loved it. And he was not ready yet. Of course, he did it. He did it in New York. And I loved that voice. But that was sort of a lesson. He doesn't think it's quite right. He's gonna get...and he did get it, you know?

Marc A. Scorca: Do you have anything on the schedule coming up? Are we gonna hear you in any roles in Des Moines or nearby anytime?

Joyce Castle: No, I did the Old Countess in Pique Dame two years ago there. I loved that, and seems like that's the last operatic foray. As I say, I'll give a farewell and I gave one before. I'll give another one. And I don't know, I probably could sing another opera role, but at this point, no. I have not been asked. I'm not asking for work, but it's a life of music. It's a great pleasure. And you all spread it. By the way, I didn't know Pat Wise was one of your (interviewees). She's KU.

Marc A. Scorca: That's right. I remember that. When I interviewed her, that she mentioned that. Yes.

Joyce Castle: A few years younger.

Marc A. Scorca: We had a lovely conversation. And she lives here in New York, so I see her from time to time. Such a lovely lady.

Joyce Castle: And David Holloway was there at the same time.

Marc A. Scorca: I did not know that.

Joyce Castle: But the umbrella that you make is very important. Very, very important.

Marc A. Scorca: Well Joyce, we do it in order to protect artists like you, and I just wanna say how honored I am to have this time with you today, and how grateful all of us are to you for more than 50 years of joyful, generous performances. You are so special to the field of American Opera. And I just wanna say thank you for being with me today.

Joyce Castle: Oh, I thank you, Marc, that touches me deeply.