Transcript
Marc A. Scorca: Wayne Sanders, thank you so much for joining me today for this conversation and for adding to our Oral History about opera in America. Thank you so much for being with us.
Wayne Sanders: Great. My joy.
Marc A. Scorca: So, I ask everyone this question; I will not spare you. Who brought you to your first opera?
Wayne Sanders: Oh, interesting question. I have to go back, 'cause you said the word 'opera'. Opera didn't come for me until much later in life, believe it or not. But you got me thinking; I've gotta think back.
Marc A. Scorca: And what came before? You said it didn't come until later in life. What came before opera?
Wayne Sanders: It's very interesting, because I didn't know that my mother was a pianist. And she was the one that was pushing me. And she was taught piano at the Jesse Jackson School in Chicago. And it's very interesting because (please don't laugh at this, because I'm gonna either laugh or cry), I started with dance in Holy Angel School in Chicago. And it was something about the movement. But believe it or not, I was standing outside this (classroom), third grade, fourth grade, something like that, and I saw them doing ballet, and there was something...I'm gonna start crying now...that moved me within myself. And I stood outside the window and I just stood there crying, and then the teacher came outside the room and said, "We don't take boys, but I know where you should go". This is how it all started. He said, "If you notice, all of them're girls in there". You see, I knew nothing about dance at all then. But it fascinated me whenever I saw people dancing, I started crying, and I didn't understand it. But he recommended me to this person who I understand just died, Ned Williams, who was a dancer with the Alvin Ailey School. He said, "You should take your talent over there and look it up". I was with Ned for so long, but in a wonderful way, because it taught me not just about dance, it taught me about myself as a person. And all his shows, there I was. People said, "What's going on here? Ned Williams has put you in there?" And I learned how to dance. I don't know - when I talk about it, it makes it emotional. My father would say "That's Wayne, he's always crying". But things that touch my heart, things that touch me that way, I release it. I don't try to control it. I can't control it. I studied dance, (but) all that time. I was studying piano, and (that was where I was going to) - I did not know my Mother played piano.
Marc A. Scorca: Did dance come before studying piano? Or at the same time?
Wayne Sanders: At the same time. My Mother, she pushed for piano. I don't wanna say 'pushed', because I lived in the Projects of Chicago and that says many things: many good things, many crazy things, but many good things. The piano came first, because my Mother, she kept saying, "No, you need to do this". She wasn't like, (makes 'nagging' sound). She said, "You need to do piano". And I found out that I loved piano. I didn't know, 'cause I had never played. I lived in the Projects then, which they have torn down now.
Marc A. Scorca: But then you went to Roosevelt University?
Wayne Sanders: Yes.
Marc A. Scorca: And was that in dance, in piano, in something else?
Wayne Sanders: I'm laughing, because I didn't know why I was there in Roosevelt. It sounds strange. I lived in the Projects, but my Mother and my Father were singers also. I mean, really, really, really good singers. My Father was a member of the Umbrian Glee Club. And I used to ask him, "Dad, why does he always asking you to do that singing there and add this and add this?" He said, "I guess, 'cause he likes my singing". And he said, "It's just that simple". But he sang all over with the Umbrian Glee Club (but) I don't think it's no longer in existence. But anyway, he did. And my Mother never once said, "Let me show you where middle C is". She never talked that way. See you making me cry, because when things get deep like that...(recovers himself). I saw this picture on my wall here, in the apartment, (2109 Broadway) and my Mother is working with a young kid, and she has a nun behind her who's playing the cello. And I started laughing. I said, "What is this?" It was quiet. And I guess I picked (up) a lot from my Mother that way, in that she and my Father were very emotional. My mother, more so than my father. But they both were very emotional. I didn't understand myself then, 'cause my Mother never mentioned piano. I don't think she wanted me to stop.
Marc A. Scorca: Now, when did you come from Chicago to New York?
Wayne Sanders: See, now you're digging deep. I have to really think about that. Outside there at the school, two (people)...(When I say 'old' or 'young', to me, it doesn't make a difference in how you're describing somebody). But one was middle-aged, and one was old. I mean, she was a good old. I call it that. And they said, "We're taking a trip to Europe". Now I'm still in school. I was teaching there. And I said, "Yes". And she said, "We want you to come and play for us". I knew one was a gospel singer. I said, "I love gospel, good gospel, stuff that says something, but I don't play it". And the other singer, she was beautiful, she was an opera singer. She sang everything, but she was an opera singer. And I looked at them. See, at that time when they asked me to come play for them, I was scared to death of airplanes. And I looked at them very quietly and I said, "Well, can you let me think about this for a while?" And they said, "We don't have time, because it's something we've got to do now. We've just got something we got to do". And I said, "Okay". And that journey to Europe started and I finally told them, scared to death, "Yes, I'll play for you", I knew I wasn't gettin' on no plane. I just knew I wasn't gonna play... and (it ended up that) I did. And that wonderful singer, Hilda Harris, - I have the time sort of mixed up; I don't think she was then. But I remember Hilda was the one (who) saw me. I was gripping the plane. The plane hadn't taken off yet. She said - Hilda is so polite, such a beautiful singer as you know, and she said, "Is there something I should know?. Is there something you know, that I don't know?" I said, "What do you mean?" She said, "Why are you holding the plane? You holding the plane like you keeping the plane up". I said, "I wasn't thinking that; I'm scared to be on this plane". And she's the one that mentioned to me...she said, "Do you know the Lord?" That was Hilda Harris, that beautiful singer. Maybe it's because they think that I'm either crazy or whatever. She didn't think I was crazy. 'Cause I was gripping, I was that afraid of planes. And when she said that to me, I didn't stop doing it, but I relaxed. And I said, "I can't show this to her, 'cause she gonna stop me". But I didn't hold onto the plane. I relaxed a little tiny bit.
Marc A. Scorca: Now, a minute ago you mentioned 2109 Broadway. I know that to be the Ansonia Hotel.
Wayne Sanders: Oh, right. You know, more than I do.
Marc A. Scorca: In an article way back from the 1970's I read, that the brainstorm for Opera Ebony happened at the Ansonia Hotel.
Wayne Sanders: Well, somebody has it partially right. You bringing up so much; this is interesting. It's one of a thousand things, but it lets me know how blessed I was. But I have to say that I've been very blessed with the things that I've learned from others.
Marc A. Scorca: You know, I read about Sister Mary Elise, and Margaret Harris.
Wayne Sanders: Oh see, now you talking. They were up here - shows you how long I've been up here. They were up here in the apartment that I'm in now. Sister Elise was here. That's how Opera Ebony got started. Ben, (Benjamin Matthews), Sister Elise, myself and Margaret Harris. Ben was here. Sister Elise, Margaret Harris, and myself, and Sister Elise looked at Ben and said, "You know, it's time you do your own thing". I'll never forget it. She didn't say those words. She said in that feeling. She said, "And you need to start your own company", right here in 2109 Broadway..." The Ansonia Hotel. See, I'm laughing and crying. Why am I doing it? Because I think sometimes things that we store up need to be released, however we put it. And I wasn't expecting you ask me these questions, but yes. And she told Ben, and at first he said, "Mm-hmm. (Further grumbling sound)". He said, "Okay, I'm gonna call it National Opera Ebony". And she said, "Mm-hmm". We couldn't stay with 'national', because there were other problems with that word. But then, Margaret Harris...Did you know Margaret Harris?
Marc A. Scorca: I did not.
Wayne Sanders: She was a fabulous musician and pianist. Margaret Harris could play your classics, anything else you wanted, and she was quite a conductor. She had some other personal things she was dealing with that stopped her from being as famous as she was. And Margaret looked at me and said, "You ought to be music director". And I said, "Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. What does a music director do?" And I wasn't trying to be funny, because I do throw out a lot of funny things. That's, I guess, living in the Projects for so long. Or, that's my Mother or my Father. But I said, "Oh, I know so many beautiful people around - musicians". And I said, "I'll find you one that'll take the socks off you, even with your shoes on". I was talking silly then. (And Sister Elise was right here. I forgot which one said, "You're supposed to be music director". I was very serious. And she said, "Don't worry about it. You already do it". I said, "Do what?" I was very serious, 'cause I was interested into my dance. I was interested into my voice.
..
And when they said that, I said, "I will find you a music director". Margaret was busy explaining to me then what a music director did. And Sister Elise just looked at me. She said, "There's no question. You are the music director". Sister Elise was quite a wonderfully fierce performer. I never heard her sing, (except I heard her sing a snatch out of something. That's another part of the story.) But Sister Elise said, "That's a great idea". And that's how it started with me being music director. She said, "You already do it". I said, "I do?"
But I became director that day.
Marc A. Scorca: That was 1973, 51 years ago.
Wayne Sanders: I've been very blessed. And it's taken me all over the world. My Father turned it into something else. 'Cause he was a very good singer too, and so was my Mother, Ora Lee Sanders. She was quite a singer.
Marc A. Scorca: You did travel the world.
Wayne Sanders: I did.
Marc A. Scorca: Iceland and Moscow and Switzerland and all over the place with the work of Opera Ebony.
Wayne Sanders: Yes, I did. Oh, there were all the singers. There was Hilda. And there was some singers I knew, some I didn't know. And I traveled to some fascinating places.
Marc A. Scorca: And really fascinating work. I mean, William Grant Still's Highway 1. And suddenly some companies are performing it these days, and you did it in 1977 at the Beacon Theatre.
Wayne Sanders: Oh, I have to pat myself on the (back)... That wasn't a congratulations for me. It was a: yes, I did. I was one, that when I would do works, whether they were new, old, whatever, I would always see them in a different way, for me. And I loved Highway 1. I loved it. I said, "You know, you all, there's some changes that need to go up in here". I start talking. I didn't say it in a negative way, but of course then, that was too early for people to be changing stuff. They didn't change it. The change was the things that I felt - I still feel - from the work... I felt it was such a good work, but it needed some things I thought that would make it greater than it was. I thought the work was wonderful. I did. You didn't ask this, but I remember when I was in Europe, scared to fly, dot, dot, all those things. And when I went to Europe, the people were so nice to me. See, I'm gonna start crying again. I can't help it. They were just beautiful to me. Oh, George Shirley asked me to play a recital for him over there. And I looked at him and I said, "Yes". I go down the list. I know the good Lord put these people all in my path. Whoa. I know you understand. But I've been so blessed. (I) come from a musical family living in the Projects. I should say that a little differently, 'cause the Projects helped me find out about life. I remember there was a piano contest, and I forgot who asked me to go into it. Was it my Mother or my piano teacher? And then I was so, you know, please, I'm just learning where middle C was in a sense, in a sense. People were so giving to me, in so many ways. And I forgot the name of the competition. The first one I went in, they said, (takes a dismissive tone) "Thank you". And then the second one I went into, it got real quiet in the room, and I played the piece with all the octaves and I didn't know it was supposed to be a difficult piece. It was fun for me to (play). I played, then I would do the thing, and I would go back and forth. I won the contest. I wasn't thinking of winning any contest. But I liked them octaves and things to play. I enjoyed that music. It did something emotional to me. And music does that to me ‘til this day. It does.
Marc A. Scorca: To everyone. That's what makes it so great.
Wayne Sanders: Yes.
Marc A. Scorca: So tell me about Valerie Capers.
Wayne Sanders: Oh, Valerie Capers? Fabulous performer. Valerie Capers? Lord have mercy. She's a wonderful composer.
Marc A. Scorca: She composed Sojourner Truth.
Wayne Sanders: Yes, she did. Valerie Capers is so first rate in many ways. And yes: all I can say is "Amen" to her. She could write, and she wasn't afraid of writing, if that word comes into writing at all. And I remember when we did it in the theater many times. I love the work.
Marc A. Scorca: Because you brought those performances to Switzerland.
Wayne Sanders: Yes. They loved it. They loved Valerie. They loved the work. They loved the fact that our music was coming from the heart. And Mommy and Daddy, Ora Lee and Alfa. That's the way they raised us. We were raised in the Projects. And a lot of people don't understand you can be raised in a place like the Project and call it whatever, but it taught me about life. It taught me about people and people opened themselves to me all the time, all the time. It has taken me all over the world, from the Projects, from the Projects.
Marc A. Scorca: So you mentioned George Shirley, who is a good friend of OPERA America. We admire George. Now that he's over 90...
Wayne Sanders: Is George over 90? George, you didn't tell me that. He don't look over no 90. He is a wonderful singer. We did a whole recital there. Ooh. Reason I said, "Ooh"? It was so cold. And what was the city? Was it Germany? He did a full recital, and he asked me to play. And like me, I said, "Yeah, of course". You know, I said it like, "Yeah, eat some jelly beans". But he said it was truth and conviction. And that helped to start me on many things. And this was in Germany. And I look back now and I say, "Sanders, you have a lot to thank to the Lord. For not only George, Mama, Papa..." And guess what? I ain't through yet. I'm not through yet, because I'll know when I'm through. I really will know when I'm through. I don't know what it is that I'm supposed to do. I have a lot of people probably mad at me too, because sometimes people think that I'm being silly, but I'm being very truthful what I feel. And I've done that my whole life. In school, I was punished quite a lot. And I don't do it to try to get something; I'm not trying to impress somebody. And it just makes me reflect on life. And I can't say what it is. Or what it isn't it, but I go back to this journey and I met these wonderful people all over the world. From the Projects, which remains for any of us. It doesn't mean where you're from or those kind of things. It's many things. But I had parents around me who were quite something. And I had people that came around me that were quite something. People showed me and led me, and I feel very blessed.
Marc A. Scorca: Now we mentioned George Shirley. Jessye Norman?
Wayne Sanders: Whoa. Miss Jessye Norman. I wasn't in my best when I played for her, I must remember that. But I played a whole recital for her. And it makes me stop to think how blessed I was for the people that I became acquainted with. They were real people. Great talents, but they were real people. And they were people that believed. They didn't say it in what I was doing. But I say these things to say how blessed I've been with my life, and the people around me have been blessed. All of us have. And not just my family, the people that came into my life, because I believe there are reasons why we come into a life, especially into someone else's life. And take that from me. But also take that to my Mother and Father But we didn't have no money. They didn't have to tell me that. I can make a little fun of it now, but we didn't. And a lot of people don't have the money that had fabulous careers. Not only classical and opera, but also popular, to say the least. I can go on a whole list, but I've been very blessed, so blessed.
Marc A. Scorca: Well, I think you have been a blessing for the people you've known.
Wayne Sanders: Don't start, don't start. I believe that. I do believe that. But I would say it in another way. I wouldn't say that, because that's so strong, what you just said. But it is so strong.
Marc A. Scorca: Wayne, I'm so honored to have had this time with you, to get to know you just a little bit.
Wayne Sanders: Thank you.
Marc A. Scorca: And I wanna say thank you for spending part of your afternoon with me today, and we look forward to saluting you at our big dinner in March to induct you into our Opera Hall of Fame.
Wayne Sanders: Whoa. I can hear my Father say "Mm-hmm; Uh-huh". But I welcome it in a wonderful way.But when those two people on the outside asked me to go to Europe to play, they didn't know me, and they didn't know that I was afraid of planes. And I said, "Yes". That's also the Lord speaking. I know it was, now. I know it was. And it was just incredible to go to places I didn't know and to stay that way and meet all the wonderful people that I have met, and all I can say is "Amen. Amen".
Marc A. Scorca: Amen to that.
Wayne Sanders: Thank you.
Marc A. Scorca: Wayne, thank you so much for being with us today.
Wayne Sanders: It's my joy.
